(W.E.Talk) Danilo Türk: I believe that the civilizations must and will cooperate

By An Yingzhao, Cui Bailu and Pei Xinyu from CNS

The 2024 Tongzhou Global Development Forum hosted by Renmin University of China is held in Beijing from October 18 to 20. More than one thousand Chinese and foreign guests from nearly 40 countries carry out dialogue and discussions around the theme of "Fostering a Community of Shared Development and Building a New Era of Humanity Together".

"I believe that the theory of 'clash of civilizations', which was proposed for discussion some 30 years ago, has serious flaws. Because there is no inevitability." During the forum, Danilo Türk, President of the World Leadership Alliance - Club de Madrid, former President of Slovenia, former President of the UN Security Council and Assistant Secretary-General, pointed out in an exclusive interview with the "W. E. Talk" by China News Service that "clash of civilization" was a real historic phenomenon and problem, but not destiny indeed.

Türk emphasized, "Now, I believe that the civilizations must and will cooperate. We live in one world, and we share the same planet. We are destined to cooperate and build our civilizations further into a global synergy."

Here are the excerpts of the interview:

CNS: The 2024 Tongzhou Global Development Forum is held from October 18 to 20. It is reported that you are invited to attend the forum and will deliver a speech. What do you think of the theme of this forum - Fostering a Community of Shared Development and Building a New Era of Humanity Together?

Danilo Türk: I think that this is a very timely initiative, because the world is going through a period of very serious crisis and disruptions. Now, there are over 50 armed conflicts taking place in the world, and the economic policies, political policies are often very divergent. So what is needed really is an effort to bring the world together, behind a single vision of development.

And obviously, China is in a very good position to work for this objective. Because China, first of all, has made enormous progress in the past decades, a historically important progress. And that progress has enabled the world to think ambitiously about global development. I used to work for the United Nations. When we were thinking about the Millennium Development Goals, we were not sure whether there was progress. But then we looked at the global statistics, and we have seen that progress has indeed been made.

And much of that progress happened because of China, because of historic development in China, lifting 800 million people out of poverty, and making itself a major partner to the whole world, including the developing world.

So we have seen how a leading force of China can help global objectives. And now, it is important to bring this same quality of the role of China and the world to a new level. And I believe that the time is very ripe to start working for that objective.

CNS: During the past three years, China successively put forward the Global Development Initiative, the Global Security Initiative, and the Global Civilization Initiative. In your opinion, what is the internal logic of these three global initiatives?

Danilo Türk: Again, these three initiatives are very welcome for the world, because they demonstrate the understanding of China that one has to work in synergies, because global development cannot really succeed without security. So there has to be improvement of the global security situation as well. Therefore, Global Security Initiative is an important component of improvement of the world as a whole. In other words, an improvement of development. Because development is not only growth of Gross National Product. Development is not only reduction of poverty. Development means enrichment in every respect, and that means also security of people. People cannot really enjoy development if they're feeling insecure.

And as I said, the world is now in a bad shape. More than 50 armed conflicts are happening around the world. There is a need for really strong global action. If it succeeds, it would help development as well.

Clearly, the world has to discuss the state of global civilization and the future of global civilization. We are, after all, one species. Human beings are one biological species. Now, this one species live in a variety of cultural environments, various development levels, variety of political arrangements. It is not easy to bring this into a coherent understanding of what makes human civilization better. So an effort is needed. That effort is not new, because there were efforts of this kind in the past, but much of that has been rather limited.

For example, if one talks about human rights, human rights is an important civilization and achievement of the people, but it can be interpreted in a rather narrow, legalistic fashion, or in a fashion which is dominated by a political agenda. Human rights have been abused in various ways, including misinterpreted for the purpose of political struggle.

Therefore, there is a need for a broader framework, a civilization framework. You know in the West, there has been a lot of talk recently about "clash of civilizations". Let us discuss this. Is a clash of civilizations real? Is it needed? What are civilizations? Aren't we actually belonging to one universal global civilization? And all these things have to be discussed further and developed into meaningful policies. So I think that these three initiatives of China are very welcome. They are very timely.

CNS: At present, profound changes unseen in a century are accelerating. While although China advocates equality, mutual learning, dialogue, and inclusiveness between civilizations, and advocating respect for the diversity of civilizations, thoughts like "clash of civilization", "zero-sum game", "de-risking" etc, attract more attentions in a few Western countries. What do you think the mutual learning between the East and the West means for the development of human civilizations?

Danilo Türk: Obviously, these are very important questions. I believe that the theory of "clash of civilizations", which was proposed for discussion some 30 years ago, has serious flaws. Because there is no inevitability. There is nothing inevitable about "clash of civilization". Civilizations can clash and they have clashed in the past.

The clash of civilization is a real historic phenomenon and problem, but it is not destiny. It is not destiny indeed. Therefore, I think the political leaders have to put on the table meaningful alternatives. Civilizations can also coexist, they can cooperate, they can enrich each other, and they can lead the world forward towards a better future. I think it is important that we understand that plurality of civilizations does not necessarily mean clash of civilization. I personally don't see any reason why Western civilization which my people and I belong to, would have to clash with the Chinese civilization. That's sort of nonsense. We see the great achievements of China, We can also benefit from those achievements. Of course, we have to have a flexibility of mind. We have to have a flexibility of political thought to see what brings us all forward. Of course, this is not easy. This is not a simple matter.

CNS: It is reported that you were recently invited to attend China International Friendship Conference and events marking the 70th founding anniversary of the Chinese People's Association for Friendship. What role do you think people-to-people diplomacy plays in today's international exchanges?

Danilo Türk: I think that people to people diplomacy is a vast, untapped potential. It has not yet been fully used. Unfortunately, during the recent pandemic of covid-19, the amount of global communication has been reduced. This has not yet fully recovered.

Now, I believe that the civilizations must and will cooperate. We live in one world, and we share the same planet. We are destined to cooperate and build our civilizations further into a global synergy. That's my conviction, and that's not naive. That's actually a condition of our common survival. And sooner or later, we'll be there. So it is good that we have this thinking as now being strengthened. It is very important that the people-to-people contacts are given priority, because people have to travel, people have to visit other countries, people have to compare, people have to get the practical life impression about what's happening elsewhere.

You see, I believe that we are in a situation where people-to-people contacts have to be given much higher priority than before. I think that it is very good that China is reducing visa restrictions, because there is nothing more important and more effective than when people see how things are.

People are being told that China is like this or like that. But when people come to China, they see what China is like. This people talk to Chinese people and that makes an impact. So I'm all in favor of people-to-people contacts and need to expand that contact very substantially. We have seen this in Europe. Europe was also divided into small states, basically. But now, with the people-to-people contacts within a single space of European Union, we have progressed much more fast.

CNS: How about culture? Do you have any suggestions to make the cultural exchanges better between China and Europe?

Danilo Türk: I think that culture in terms of classical Chinese art is highly appreciated in Europe. The aesthetic value of classic Chinese art is undisputed. This is a very high value, being very respected. The question is more in the sense, what is contemporary art bringing? What are the tendencies in contemporary art that can help building a kind of a global cultural community?

Here, I think there is a very large space for creativity and cooperation. I would favor, for example, when it comes to the art of painting and drawing to have colonies of artists. So let's say to send hundreds of Chinese artists to various places in Europe and hundreds of artists from various European countries to China, and let them do their artwork in a new environment in China, for the Europeans and the Chinese, I think that would be wonderful.

And also there are visual arts where I think we have seen some very interesting development, such as film, tv, visual production, including the digital production. I think one would need to innovate a lot, bring new techniques if you want new tricks into the picture. I see here has an enormous space, and that is part of these people-to-people contacts. We need more of that, and I think that's doable.

CNS: As an old friend who has visited China more than 50 times in the past two decades, what changes in China have impressed you deeply?

Danilo Türk: When I started to come to China in the end of 1990s, I realized that was like 25 years ago. When I come to China, I realized that China is changing very fast. Even when I was driving from the airport in Beijing to the city, I saw so much new constructions, many new things and this country is going through very dynamic transformation.

Then I went to Xiamen of Fujian province, and other places of Sichuan, where I saw developments that really impressed me very strongly. Then I was in kibbutz at one point in the desert to see how the Chinese experts are fighting desertification.

So, we can see this enormous dynamism which has been transforming China for several decades. That's really very impressive and a very big opportunity for the world. I'm very optimistic about this. I don't think that wars are inevitable. I think that now with all these wars happening in different parts of the world, it would be a good moment for China and the major western powers to get together and say: "hey, how do we stop all this? Whether this is harmful for everybody?"

I believe such a cooperative approach is not impossible. It's difficult now because of various ideological factors and political interests. But sooner or later, a more cooperative and generally accepted approach can prevail.

CNS: In which fields will you carry out exchanges and cooperation with China in the future?

Danilo Türk: There are many fields in which cooperation should take place. One of them is energy. How do we improve the energy cooperation globally to make sure that global warming is stopped? We are all interested in that. And there has to be an approach that would help us achieving it.

That's a very practical and very immediate task for cooperation. That was not possible, 30 or 40 years ago. Because every country has its own energy policy, every country has its own priorities and so forth. Now I think everybody is forced to think about global effects and everybody should be interested in new levels of cooperation.

I'm very unhappy to see that the global trading system is in a way paralyzed, and that's also something that would require rethinking reforms and opening up to further stronger cooperation. That's another thing, and then there are many other fields. I believe in international cooperation, because that's the only real way for the world to survive.